As if the second the signature is complete, God removes the red tape and says, alright – you’re good, go for it. It’s okay to do it, cause you signed the piece of paper and got your two witnesses -… No one thinks that. What if your pen runs out of ink?! Or one of the names are spelled wrong so that God isn’t sure whether you married Kirsten or Kristen. I mean he has got to know! or else he won’t know where to remove the sin tape – okay, so we have that figured out… that’s obviously not the moment of marriage, a.k.a. it’s not a sin to have sex anymore, so when is it? This will help to understand what marriage is… A promise to start a family together? A promise to love one another till death does its parting? Is it even to do with love (considering arranged marriage are enormously common and there isn’t big talk about Christians being against it)? is it To start on this journey that will hopefully force us to love one another (probably in a few decades)?… That’s a crazy notion to me – arranged marriages. Christians somehow deduce that there is nothing wrong with a man, having never even met this veiled woman (who has just become his wife)… doesn’t love her, because he doesn’t know her, nor her for that matter – they can have sex and no Christians even blinks. A complete stranger. No worries. Why? ‘well because they’re married.’ So it doesn’t have to do with love? Hm… so it has to do with forced commitment? A contract makes sex not a sin? Is that right? We may have to agree that when it comes to arranged marriages it is all about family… combining families and starting families. That is the arrangement. anyway, I will be all over the place, so bear with me … a free-thoughting session:
Sex and Marriage/Pre-marital Sex – Yes and No. (in honor of one of my favorite theologians, Karl Barth). People often talk about marriage as a commitment before God, where there is security and thereby a healthy place to grow in love… If marriage, in the traditional sense, brings a sense of security or removes thoughts of being abandoned for another – it is not mutual love that is bringing the two together. Love and Trust are completely indivisible (if I KNOW that my partner loves me, then I am completely free of doubt and suspicion! When suspicion remains, there is a lack of trust somewhere, or should I say a lack of love somewhere (This is why couples need to constantly reinforce each other’s love for one another).
Marriage – is simply a symbol of what has already taken place (Bonhoeffer). that’s it!
I despise the Christian concept of virginity because I believe it is purely a sociological development where prior to 100 years ago, sex meant children. children meant family. family is sacred (The 10 commandments are clear on this issue)- not sex. that’s why historically, jewish men could do whatever they wanted … and sex WAS the marriage because it was the beginning of a family (think of Catholicism’s notion of contraceptives). like the story of Rebekah and Isaac (meeting, going to the tent and voila). today this is no longer the case – there isn’t the sex-child unbreakable link anymore.
*Culture is the dress of Religion*
Family is still sacred today. family will always be sacred. It is not humans that ascribe ’sacredness,’ if that were the case, then yes – something can lose its sacredness. just like profanity – it doesn’t change over time. and it isn’t the fact that premarital sex occurs that families are falling apart, or diseases exist, or that there are commitment issues, or divorces are common and dysfunctional families are everywhere. to connect to two is ridiculous… it is much deeper than that. it’s about love. what does it mean – not how does it feel … lots of Christian virgins who marry get divorced, have dysfunctional families etc. (Pornography is a way bigger issue, it can and does destroy families)
Also, i think that it’s not really fair to see premarital sex as selfish… as though it isn’t in marriage. Marriage is nothing, it doesn’t change anything. it doesn’t right any wrongs. it doesn’t bring more security. that is the illusion that is wrecking so many people’s lives. What does God care? it’s not even clear in scripture… if it were important at all, would not Jesus have talked about it, even just once!… instead of honoring your parents? adultery is a huge topic because and only because it breaks families apart. it’s not because sex in itself is a sin if you haven’t signed a frickin piece of paper. that’s not the sin part! but the church has reduced it to that. “oh, okay… we found the problem…um, it’s premarital sex” voila, Fixed – just because a few theologians could concentrate more on God when they were shut up in some walled monastery.
Dr. Tim Perry said, to make a point of course, that if you want to get married but not have children (not start a family), then don’t get married and just have sex! That is exactly the point; family (again, think of Catholicism’s notion contraceptives).
The church’s conception of premarital sex, for me, is as non-scriptural as praying to different patron saints… so if you lose something, you pray to the patron saint of lost things… i forget his name. these rules or traditions that have been developed are instated for those who cannot grasp the deeper truths behind the traditions and laws. Paul and Christ say it all the time – when your eyes are open – the laws fade away. When principles are understood – when what the law is getting at is understood… the law has no more use. The Pharisees came up with hundreds of laws, but these laws were designed to stop breaking the 10 laws of Moses or to stop from even coming near to breaking one of the commandments (so only allowed 200 steps on the Sabbath day – and they can’t be long ones). These people are rebuked in scripture.
I sometimes have a strong distaste for marriage because people think it is a certificate of security where effort/liking/loving/playing/laughing/respect/complimenting/flirting are no longer required… or less important. They think marriage means, now i can relax. Instead of it being exactly the opposite. i almost think that security/certainty tends to turn off the human Spirit (Hence mystery being so captivating…) you know, like for example (in a small way), i would drive 2 hours just to pick up some roses for you for our 3 month anniversary, but by our 3 rd yr anniversary i may not even drive 20 minutes…i see this kind of thing all the time! i know love evolves, but it certainly doesn’t lose effort…BUT if I’m about to lose my partner or something drastic… then all of a sudden sparks fly. i don’t like that… I find it wasteful. Sometimes couples start acting and treating each other like siblings – THAT is what security/certainty/the certificate of marriage seems to manifest… – BUT the idea is so wonderful… there is nothing greater than loving and being loved… but how does one love? What the heck is love!? once humankind can understand this, then you have your FIX – for dysfunctionality, divorces, families splitting, diseases… that IS the issue – Not premarital sex.
You may think – oh all this talk of premarital sex; people being ‘free’ and doing whatever feels good (‘how hedonistic’) – Maybe in a bizarre way, love is the opposite of freedom – but at the same time the epitome of freedom…(Yes and No) and the problem today is people only understanding the latter part of that equation.
I am not saying that people should just go off and sleep around – that is not the point at all. I don’t like the guilt thrown upon Christians, I don’t like the fact that sometimes Christian girls get married and still feel like they are doing something wrong. They can’t enjoy themselves, start to dislike sex, the husband senses this and there you have it, the perfect breeding soil for serious problems. Or the opposite end of the spectrum where some young people are so enthralled by the sex taboo, imposed by the Christian community, that they become obsessive and things become unhealthy quite quickly. What I am saying is – it shouldn’t reign on the throne of Issues. One should be careful – and choose wisely. That’s all.
Apart from that – it shouldn’t be rules that determine what you do or don’t do – it should be understanding/reason. It should be something that makes sense – something like, I shouldn’t put my hand into a fire because it hurts – why, because my flesh is going to fry, which really hurts, leaves scares, and removes sensation. Sex is the same – there are possible consequences… emotional and physical. I don’t deny this. But these should be the reasons to be cautious… not religion or senseless ‘God-rules.’ God gave us minds; Wisdom, She is our gift from God who existed before creation (Proverbs) and upon whom the world was formed… She is the key to understanding.
18 responses so far ↓
a different anon // June 20, 2008 at 12:06 pm |
I agree, you make a very powerful statement and have found the words i have been trying to figure out for ages. the idea has been there but i’ve been unable to describe it apart from a symbol of a pledge you make to your partner that you have chosen them to be the one you want for ever. it just so happens that it feels good also.
good posting.
Michael Quiring // June 22, 2008 at 1:41 am |
I believe this topic has to built from the ground up. Jesus did not address premarital sex as a specific act, but he by all means addresses the unification of a man and woman: “Haven’t you read,” Jesus replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
I don’t believe one can make a contemporary split between sex and marriage (where marriage/commitment is for families). The physical act of sex is a unification and a symbol of what is happening at the emotional/spiritual level. Sex and commitment were created by God to be indivisible. There is no talk of family yet. One engaging in extra-marital sex makes a bond (whether acknowledged or not) that was intended to be supplemented with commitment. And if they reject the existence of the bond and move on to engage with others, is it not nonetheless adultery?
One consequence: if there is no Commitment when going to the most intimate, vulnerable, rapturous place humans know, a girl may be used. She may conclude that Love has never existed at all and all people ever do is caress their carnal desires, putting on romantic sheep-skins.
For cases where an agreed “solely physical fling” is established: sure it sounds good at first, but I am convinced that the bond can only be denied for so long. These end in at least one person very hurt.
And we cannot neglect the directly proportional relation of promiscuity to STI’s. Does that not speak something?
I don’t buy that just because you know some people that have lost romantic flare in marriage that romance only flourishes where there is no commitment. I know many who are still very romantic after years or decades of marriage. In fact, romance that still flourishes after years is a testament to true Love. Uncommitted romance can be mimicked by the worst Casanovas.
I agree about abstinence from premarital sex not being the cure for dysfunctional marriage. That much is certain. There are myriad causes – all stemming from a lack of Love (not romantic love). It is godliness that will make a marriage successful. However, that doesn’t therefore mean that premarital sex should be sanctioned.
Oh no, I have to go now. Excuse any sloppiness or unfinished thoughts.
lucygold // June 24, 2008 at 3:40 pm |
I agree with both pierre’s points and michael’s, pierre is making a case on premarital sex that is saying you don’t need a document and a certificate/piece of paper that says you are married to be in a committed marriage type relationship.
I know many many chrisitans who have split up un avoidably after marriage because communication and other factors have broken down. Its very sad, but it does happen alot. is it wrong then that if they find someone else and get married to that person, is that adultery? maybe in the armish sense…
Why should a person stay in a marriage where they are not happy and it become harming for them or their family to be around. that is not what god would want i believe.
I agree that sex in general is a bond and a unification with that person, but just as if two people were to give themselves to each other and not be with anyone else, isnt that saying that they are remaining faithful and wanting to be with this one person. For as when me make choices to get married or in choosing a partner, we don’t know what could happen in the future, what paths are being made for us to make more decision and where will they go, god’s guidence is with us but even tho we make a conscious decision to be with that person, how do we know that in marriage or out, it will last for ever. It has to be tried and work through like any relationship. and possibly relationships that are formed before marriage are better as its not such a shock to the system to suddenly be living with a man who farts and burps and eats so much you think he woudl explode or get HUMUNGOUS… and all those other familar things that you suddenly realise when living with someone or being around someone so much. eg marriage. these things can be worked trough and developed. the constraints of marriage in the strictly chrisitan sense makes it so that one day you are a virgin, a girl who has only known her fathers or brothers before and probably ever seen what a man looks like under his clothes except for a science book and sex ed…with no idea what to do around someone else in an intimate setting to a woman who is expected to be the ideal wife (always thinking what ideal wife means to someone) and expected to know what to do, and what is normal. its just abit odd that its meant to be like that…
Marriage in my mind is a blessing over the two people inwhich their lives and future family is blessed and it does symbolise the being together for ever thing in some people’s eyes but for those who aren’t christians marriage is just a piece of paper, they have already made the commitment to be with each other and to possibly raise a family. so what is the marriage we see today apart from a way to make people conform to a tradition that has evolved from the church?
not that im against marriage. i just think commitment and trust are first and marriage ties are unreliable in today’s society.
just a few thoughts on the matter…
pierrejeande // July 1, 2008 at 7:24 pm |
In response to Mike’s comment:
A few things. It is as though ‘commitment’ for you can only be the act of marriage. this is what i am disagreeing with, i am not saying that there is a division between sex and commitment, but that commitment is something that takes place outside of marriage, and marriage is merely the symbol of what has already occurred. Therefore the example of the girl being used, and love having never existed and the caressment of carnal desires – is not something that only takes place outside of marriage! As mentioned marriage Isn’t a safety net or a holy net as it is often perceived to be. relationships between married couples cannot be seen as better, or more loving, or more of anything… or even less caressing of carnal desires for that matter. There are many many messed up and immoral/unloving marriages out there. Don’t tell me that they are somehow more in accord with God’s will. What matters, the only thing that matters is the care and love between the couple. marriage again, is nothing. it is not a determiner, it is not a green card of any sort, and it certainly isn’t a place where suddenly sex is okay. THAT is cheapening sex… as though it is just a matter of getting a certificate.
Also in ancient biblical times there was no separation between sex and family. So that it doesn’t make sense to say ‘there is no talk of family yet.’ of course, this would be redundancy for that cultural understanding.
Redefining adultery as such is noble and something i would agree with – but as the word is used today and in biblical times – it is only within a marriage that this takes place. Hence having the Old Testament Jewish custom of a man being able to sleep with any woman, as long as she was a virgin, immediately making her his wife. (this was not understood as adultery)
On the issue of STIs: This may require further research – but i have heard from a medical source that all known STIs source from bestiality of one form or another. Or as is often mentioned in the new testament, “perverted/immoral sex.” Yes, there are certain consequences, but i think it is unfair to believe that STIs are a result of sex outside of marriage.
There is no suggestion of rampant sex in this article.
Again you seem to constantly imply that commitment is only possible when the piece of paper is signed. this is nonsense. I also know loving romantic couples who have been married for decades… sure, great. but there are many non-married (or for you, non-committed) couples who also have a loving romantic flare for decades. And unfortunately, and i truly mean this – i have seen so many young married people and old married people where there is nothing… but the signed piece of paper. Is that good? was that God’s intention? perhaps…
And yes, it is godliness and maybe only godliness that will make a marriage/relationship successful. Amen.
Mike – you are certainly one of my closest friend, please know that i have all the respect and love for you a friend can have. you are refreshing, and discussing with you is always great.
dehaene // July 1, 2008 at 8:30 pm |
STI’s are the results of sexual promiscuity, too short commitments! with people who are desperate to be loved, or just want to have some fun… or are really looking for the best guy or the ideal girl…and have at least to experience quiet a few before you can decide and make a informed choice… or people who happened to be unfaithful…
Accidents do happen… and to forgive … with sometimes all the consequences… is such an expression of love that i am gobsmacked…
to me ideal love, big real love is seen between the the Father God and the Son God…. and there is no marriage contact there! i think that is what God intended to be human love…:
the spiritual union between Jesus and his Father… is the most beautiful expression of love i can imagine.. this is God’s ideal for us… but He can cope with our failures! with our lack of love, integrity, faithfulness, commitment… He is patient, forgiving, loving modelling us into His Son’s image
the more i love God the more i love my wife!
dehaene // July 1, 2008 at 9:44 pm |
sorry sorry folks, spelling mistake, instead of contact, it should be contract….
….and there is no mariage contract…
pierrejeande // July 3, 2008 at 10:31 am |
merci Papa – perhaps the more you love God, the more you simply love. And maman gets to be the luckiest one : )
Dominick // July 5, 2008 at 5:48 am |
“It shouldn’t reign on the throne of issues.” Absolutely.
It seems to me that you (and to a more acute degree, Lucygold as well) are reacting not so much against marriage or Christianity’s principles as you are to a culture who has forgotten why we made any rules in the first place.
I wonder if you see intercourse as not much more than a physical act. Sex is spiritual/emotional/physical. I’m assuming you know that, even though most people don’t understand it. Michael addressed this well, I think. I agree with you that there is a strange focus in Christendom on the act of extra-marital sex.
Let’s call it fornication, just for fun.
If God’s world was just a bunch of individuals doing their own things, I think that I would be more on the same page as you are. But that isn’t the case. A person cannot truly know him or herself apart from some sort of intimacy, and the world is put together by communities (probably because it’s good for individuals). And sex and marriage happen in community. (I’ll also say that solitude is necessary for understanding myself, just so we’re in some sort of agreement.)
Of course I agree with you that we need to use wisdom rather than rules to guide our lives. I think that this is a given for most thinking people (who admittedly are few in number). Of course a piece of paper doesn’t make sex OK, breaking the “sin line.” And I almost believe that having sex before marriage is perfectly fine. In some way, if I had had sex with Sandi before March 15th at about three o’clock, it would be acceptable. I love her, in an I’m-committed-to-serving-you sort of way. Nothing will convince me to leave her. I will be faithful to her in more ways than by avoiding sexual activity with another woman. And the mystery of relationship will persist.
Communities, by definition, are held together by boundaries. Communities in turn nurture humans. Advocating on behalf of Community, though, is a tough job, because it’s hard to find an example of a working community in our hyper-individualist society. You don’t see many benefits of community. Not many do, and yet we all yearn so deeply for it. It’s part of our make-up, whether you believe in God’s designing of humanity or not. Simply, we are social animals.
Also, I have been learning the profound benefit of the mundane, the everyday — of routine. People needneedneed adventure and mystery and indefinable hope. We also need roots, to be connected deeply to something more profound and basic than ourselves. Our bodies are as inseparable from our souls and spirits as the Creator is from his creation. In saying that, then of course we, as God’s creation, are tied to the earth, to one another, and to God in more ways than we can probably imagine. People grow and develop by not separating themselves from these things. There is a reason that regular work is good for the soul, and that divorce ruins children. We are meant to connect with God, directly and through creation/community. If hiking a mountain is good for the soul, then so is open relationship – so is love. It is astonishingly beneficial for the individual to be part of relationships that get behind our guards, behind our facades, behind who we want to be, behind who we imagine we are. Solitude can only bring us so far.
They called the eighties the “Decade of Greed,” but the eighties have got nothing on us. Our generation is the “me” generation. The call of Christianity is to be intentionally redemptive in action and thought, and so is necessarily counter-cultural. We are hardly that, here in Canada, now in this generation. What you seem to be reacting against is not Christian rules, exactly. You have seen too many Christians get duped into committing to something that kind of sucks, compared to the ideal of true love. There is too much selfishness, too much neediness, too much slothfulness. People haven’t addressed the deeper longings of their own spirits, and cannot begin to pursue or understand those of their partners.
The Jewish-to-Christian community long ago recognised this, and put some guidelines together, so that as a group – as a unified, hopefully loving whole – there would be protection against the possible dangers. This Christian idea of marriage assumes that the people involved are deciding to remain faithful. If people decide to, they can; just as my parents, who are the best worst couple to ever stay together and be in passionate love (for real).
We have papers now, but it isn’t in the paper, it’s in what the signatures on there represent: There have been people present who agree that this union should take place, and who have also agreed to be actually present in the future of the relationship. The certificate represents a greater community than just two people, and we have lost that understanding. Usually, the people who signed the paper aren’t given the right to have any say in the relationship afterward. People enter marriage with no idea what it means, like you said, but I think that maybe it’s not entirely their fault. It’s mine and yours, and our ancestors and our friends.
Then, these people who have no clue what marriage or sex are for, take that ignorance and impose the simple rules that they know but don’t understand, and ruin a perfectly beautiful thing for the angry people of our generation.
I don’t apologise for my lengthiness. Deal with it, Dehaene.
pierrejeande // July 8, 2008 at 3:20 pm |
I will attempt to deal with it : )
“Sex is spiritual emotional and physical, i hope you know that.” I know that i am a product of post-modernity hence i must say that sex FOR YOU is spiritual, emotional and physical. I know many people who differentiate between making making love, having sex, and f******. I’m assuming you know that. : )
Fornication – well this word certainly brings a different sense, mostly because of its common use in the church as something evil. so i prefer we stick to sex.
You almost believe that having sex before you’re married is perfectly fine?? oh such caution. Reason battling with tradition. : )
Much of what you said and are implying are echoes from the initial post. I think you think we disagree much more than we actually do. Often while reading your comment, i thought you were just reinforcing in a reprimand-like fashion… correct me if i’m wrong.
I don’t apologize for my brevity.
much love
lastebb // July 19, 2008 at 5:39 am |
Mon ami;
Some time ago, a good friend of mine punched my tooth out. (It was hardly his fault, seeing as I had agreed to box with him, and that tooth had been broken before.) I had a root canal, and the rest of the tooth was grinded off so that I could have a fake one. A whole fake one. But when that fake tooth came in, the colour was far too yellow. It made the rest of my teeth seem yellow and “plaquey,” but my dentist didn’t have time to change anything, because he was going on vacation in a few days. So, I took the tooth, drove out to Winnipeg, and found the lab of the man who made my off-coloured tooth. It was in an unmarked space above some stores in a part of town I had hardly ever been to. My dentist had told him I was coming.
The man was quiet but by no means shy. He wore a beard, thick and hardly groomed, but clean. With grunts he responded to some of my questions — words weren’t terribly necessary to him, I guess. I waited in a rolling chair by some teeth.
The man, after gathering all of the tools he’d need, and variously coloured teeth , pulled up another chair and went straight to work. Up close in my face. The room was silent, except for his breathing, and all I could smell was his natural odour. At first, I thought it stank. He was very kind, even if he was a little abrupt and unsociable, and I was starting to warm to him, probably without his knowing. I saw more than a lab technician. I saw more than an aging man. I realised that his smell was actually not repugnant at all, but rather more comparable to the smell of fresh earth or wood trimmings than to a locker room or to some of the customers I used to deliver newspapers to as a child.
He found the right colour for my smile. He also helped me find more sincerity to my farewell, by being authentic, and by getting closer than I would let even most of my friends. I allowed myself to be deeply impressed by this experience.
I believe that there was a true connection of some sort that went beyond the physical, and even though I was open to notice it, I don’t think that I needed to be open for something to happen. There is that reality which we are not as familiar with, that true life that connects us with things around us, and when two humans come into contact with one another, either in conversation, in passing by, through intercourse, with a hug, or however it happens, our very being is affected and changed to some degree.
I could have not have noticed the pleasant calm that this man’s atmosphere could bring. I could have just had my tooth figured out and left, thankful that I didn’t have to deal with the smell anymore, and then have forgotten about the whole ordeal. But I still would have been affected. Our souls brushed up against one another. And the truth is that this is usually what happens to us — we encounter reality on a daily basis and we don’t notice. Our very being is changed as we go about, and we don’t know it, until one day we realise that we don’t know how we aren’t the way we used to be. We touch people and they touch us. We laugh with friends, make love with near strangers, feel awkward with the lady in the elevator; we cry with loved ones, rage at the waiter, stand beside beautiful people. These things form us. They cannot do otherwise.
This is why I can’t believe that there is such thing as “f******” and why I don’t think that having sex with the woman I love before I married her is perfectly fine. Nothing I do is done in a vaccuum. Community happens, no matter how hard to try to shut it off. I am accountable to the world; I am accountable to you. This is why I went on for so long about community in my first response. Sharing intercourse with one person in a relationship that gets behind my guards (that I mightn’t have recognised on my own), and that is part of my everyday, is healthy for my soul. And if I belong to a community that recognises this bond on a certain day and at a certain time, and with certain papers in place, then I will comply — gladly, with difficulty.
Dang, I’m long-winded.
pierrejeande // July 20, 2008 at 3:42 pm |
Thank you for your comment and story – you have an amazing way with words.
I agree. but unfortunately it surprises me and bothers me how much you have misunderstood my post. how much of it is ignored, as though you ‘already know what i am trying to say.’ You are not responding to me, but to some erratic/non-thought out notion… constructed with pieces taken out of context. why?
I am curious, what do you think i am saying? maybe if you have time, read it again. you may be surprised.
much love
Lucy // July 21, 2008 at 11:32 pm |
a christian youth person once describe having sex with more than one person like two piece of buttered bred being pressed together and separated over and over again.
eventually pieces of each of the slices will come off and stick to the other and even more eventually the pieces will be broken. (like the idea of brushing against people’s lives)
I had always thought this idea to be a really good description and agreed with it. however, with some decent firends and a realisation of more complex relatioships i’ve realised that sex insn’t the only thing that makes the relationship work at all, sex i s merely a component to a healthy relationship with your lover (lover being the person you love. )
i agree that what marriage has become is a thing completely different to what it originally set out to be. religion has evolved with the times and while more people are turning away from, the church and its restrictions in this area aswell as others the church becomes more anal about the little things and so in turn makes more people turn away.
(otheres here may disagree with me and say that the church has relaxed alot since it was founded) people also would say that the bible is a guide book and a manual for life. usually in Ikea they update their manuals to make it easier to understand and to relate withthe next generation. the difficulty i have with the bible is that it was made for the people of the time and civilization has evolved since then with a greater understanding of how things work and how to avoid thigns happening eg things like STDs and STIs.
i have thought about my ideas on marriage and sex before marriage quite alot since you wrote this piece and it has prompted me to challenge why i think that marriage is the answere to eternal happiness and the way to be eternally at peace with myself. the way to KNOW that you are safe and that you can concentrate on everything else because once you are married you can relax. My boyfirend isnt a christian, his brothers both have children with people they arent married to, one is separated and shares custody and one has a family and is planning a wedding next year. his parents were highschool sweethearts and are still together.
I asked him if he would get married tomorrow if he could and he sad no, i got annoyed so i asked him why and he said because he didnt know what the point of marriage was. To him its something in the future, he doesnt need to worry about it now its not something that he needs, to me i’ve always seen it as the ultimate promise and the moment when you know they will stay with you forever and you dont have to stress about something going wrong. why? maybe in marriage you have to work even harder to make sure that it doesnt get boring. I always thought it was normal to have parents that were still together and my friends in uni have told me how lucky i am that my parents are together and that they even eat together. i’ve never thought of that before.
i am rambling.
what i am trying to say in a much shorter way is thank you for writing this and making me think more and understand that marriage isnt the final word and that there are greater things to share with someone that sex and marriage. that it isnt really that black and white and that sex although it its thought of as the worlds greatest gift or greatest sin isnt actually that at all.
(the reason why sex with many people is thought to break you apart like bread is because of the emotional connection you make with someone in a relationship so really if you didnt have sex with someone you could still feel like a piece of battered buttered bread at the end anyways.)
this topic i think has gone in many directions from your original piece because everyone feels quite passionately about it in different ways.
mariefrance // July 26, 2008 at 11:48 am |
super conversation and debate!!! I am really enjoying it! Hope that the discussion will go on!!!Such an important subject not enough deepened in christian cercles and in secular press.
…If only we were wiser in all things…
pierrejeande // August 1, 2008 at 5:39 pm |
merci lucy and mariefrance for your comments – Lucy you’re welcome, thank you for your kind words.
Ellisha Joseph // August 29, 2008 at 9:09 am |
Hey Pierre and everyone
Val was here with Rups for a visit this last week and encouraged me to read this for the sake of a good debate.
It seems you are surrounded with wise friends who love and respect you and your thought processes. (i particularily enjoyed Lastebb’s reply- he really does express himself beautifully.)
I don’t know how deeply i want to dabble in this complex conversation, but i am inspired to comment
I have to say that my heart has been searching for an explanation of why people often find themselves disillutioned after entering a comitted relationship.. Why people are full of expectation and hurt and (sometimes selfish) disapointment.
In looking out at our generation and reflecting over where we’ve come from, there seems to be a steady pulse beind the blurr of kulture, hurt, confusion and religion-the driving force of our lives: love, and the persuit thereof.
As your wise and caring dad mentioned: God is love. His love for his son (and us) is perfect.
I believe i understand what you’re getting at with your blog. It seems to me that the heart behind it all is: What is anything worth without love? Both sex and marriage are symblos and expressions of a comittment made in love.
Before i take more time to mull this whole conversation over, let me know if my perceptions were accurate in regards to where your heart’s at..
pierrejeande // August 29, 2008 at 9:34 am |
dear Ellisha,
i believe your perceptions are accurate in regards to where my heart is at. symbols and signs mean nothing in themselves, simply outward expressions of something that has already taken place. like baptism or circumcision for the apostle Paul – it takes place in the heart… etc.
Ellisha Joseph // September 1, 2008 at 5:03 pm |
So then, i guess a question i have is:
If you could narrow down your point to just one sentence(or statement, really) , what would it be?
Zultan // February 18, 2009 at 1:43 pm |
make love not war.